The Lord of the Rings – FLNWO #07

08/19/201339 Comments

The Lord of the Rings is an epic tale of good and evil, centering around a lowly hobbit’s quest to destroy the One Ring with its magical power before it falls into the hands of Sauron, the dark lord. The story is well-known by now, if not in its own right then from the popular Hollywood adaptations of the tale. But what is the deeper significance of the story? What does the ring really stand for? Is the ring a symbol of our quest for political power, and if so, then was Tolkein an anarchist? Join us this month on Film, Literature and the New World Order as we explore these issues with Andrew Hoffman, co-host of the Revelations Radio News podcast and author of “The New World Order and the Eugenics Wars.”

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  1. manbearpig says:

    well, I wanted to be clever and say the two towers were jachin and boaz but that led me down a rosacrucian rabbit hole with Kabbalah and a Nibiru, a place where I quite frankly Don’t want to be

    so… I’ll just say in a very banal way that I found the interviewee to be most poised, thoughtful, articulate and just generally very Pleasant

    and I thought that as far as the question of the ring was concerned… I’ll offer the modestly unoriginal idea that

    if the power problem is a system

    then if each element caught in this system can fight alone or with allies to vanquish what he knows to be his own ring, drug rings, pedophile rings, technocracy and smart rings

    we should be able to save the shire!

  2. flammable says:

    It was dealing with many smaller problems in the Lord of the Rings story that allowed the possibility of destroying the one ring.

    Actually everything happening outside of getting the ring to Mount Doom in Mordor solved more of Middle-Earth’s biggest issues. Destroying the ring was just the final step to ensure no single great power will rule over everyone.

    As for the collapsing land, well it wasn’t put in the movie to take out every enemy to save our heroes. It didn’t even mattered as the Orcs and Trolls already quit fighting and ran for it as soon as the Eye of Sauron began to fall.

    • Arby says:

      That collapsing earth, which collapsed everywhere but where the heroes were standing was, er, rather miraculous (as in higher power) wasn’t it? Here’s another (the last chapter that Jackson omitted) contradictory element in the story, unless the exact portrayal was Jackson’s idea and not in the original Tolkien story, which I haven’t read. (I was into Dune.)

  3. AnimalsArentFood says:

    I too avoid cultural phenomena as much as possible, to avoid being pulled into the hive mind or group-think; to avoid being pulled into the same wavelength as everyone else; to avoid absorbing the same propaganda primers as everyone else at the same time as everyone else; to retain the ability to observe from an outside PoV.
    Once the hype, popularity & MSM focus has thoroughly died down, I’m much more willing to check it out (if it even appears to be worth checking out).

    • manbearpig says:

      I respect that. But this story’s been hyped for longer than your lifetime, pretty much since it was written back in the fourties… and the last movie was made 16 years ago in 2003…

      • manbearpig says:

        woops! wait! hold up! A student has just informed me that the tv series is about to come out!! So you’ll have to hold off a bit more!

        • Darn it! Another decade til I find out what a hobbit is!

          Seriously though, I was only referring to James’ statement about being even more reluctant to wade into the Tolkien waters once the movies and associated hype began, and that particular cultural phenomena was re-energized.
          The books were required reading in school and I’ve seen all the films. I was just less interested in seeing the films while the hype was on (as opposed to being more interested, which is the norm).

    • Arby says:

      I agree with the motivations, I think. I know that I do to a great extent. I’m just not able to pull it off completely. I absolutely don’t want to suggest that others here aren’t human (and this thread proves that I’d be wrong to), but I am not a machine and I need more than simply the politics I immerse myself in. I have to take a break from the serious stuff and, unfortunately, Hollywood and tv are, besides coffee shops and socialization that I do in them, where I turn to. (I don’t own a tv set – I’m not that far gone – but I do stream a few stupid things that entertain me, ignoring the propaganda unless it gets too annoying.) And I don’t actually go to many movies. (The bottom of Hollywood/CIA/FBI/NSA/DEA’s priority list is entertainment and it looks like that’s not even an afterthought sometimes. Did anyone see the second, unbelievably bad, Godzilla, because that’s what I’m talking about.)

      • Yeah, I didn’t mean to give the impression that I avoid all entertainment and am solely, or even especially heavily, focused on politics.
        The end result of what I outlined above typically amounts to just remaining several years behind the times when it comes to entertainment and being repelled by hyped entertainment rather than drawn to it.
        With that said, I still don’t watch most movies (hyped or not) as most of them are garbage and I can usually tell if it’s going to be garbage based on the plot summary, actors, director and the manner in which it was promoted. For the ones that I’m uncertain about, I’ll often watch the first 15 minutes or skip through the film, watching 2-minute bits here & there.
        Also, video games are my primary source of entertainment. They’re usually a more effective escape from reality for me and, as a major bonus, they improve my cognitive abilities considerably.

        I can relate completely to what you said about the propaganda. Most movies and television shows are being made with propaganda either significantly present or as the primary motivating force for the production, with things like entertainment and creative/artistic expression being afterthoughts.
        I often have to turn off movies because the propaganda is just too nauseating to ignore. On the plus side, it does allow us to glimpse what types of propaganda they’re pushing most.

  4. Arby says:

    It might have been a bit unfair to have an expert on to talk about The Lord Of The Rings and expect him to not ‘spoil’. But aside from that, it was a fine discussion.

    Gandalf and Galadriel don’t want the ring because they know that it comes from darkness and will corrupt, but they are happy to let Frodo take it, without warning him to stay away from it? Okay.

    The idea that someone has to destroy the ring, even at the risk of their soul, so that the world – not all which ‘should’ be saved – can be saved, reflects faithlessness. If no one ever hears my wisdom, for example, it will not make one iota of difference to those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (Suppose my wisdom was a ring and hearing it was equal to destroying that ring.) That is between them and God. God, who I believe exists and who I have faith in, will save those who want to be saved, not me.

    I was not aware of the actual ending of the Lord Of The Rings, namely the one that Peter Jackson omitted. As fantasy, Jackson’s truncated story works. As something that reflects our reality, Tolkien’s final chapter works pretty good, although, intriguingly, it doesn’t make sense to attach such a chapter to the kind of story that was presented in the rest of the book. It seems to me that Tolkien needed to get something off his chest and his choice to tack on that chapter to his story was perhaps that, as well as bad judgment from a strictly fantasy storytelling standpoint.

    If only politicians realized that their political power will corrupt them? Today, Politicians are – in most countries – simply gangsters. The worry about their political power corrupting them makes no sense. If you don’t want to be a gangster, then don’t join a gang. Nor do I vote for gangsters and gangs.

    I don’t think that I really buy Andrew Hoffman’s rationalizations in support of monarchy. Monarchy is parasitism, period.

    As a Christian (outside of mainstream, fake Christianity), I absolutely don’t believe that salvation comes from un-spiritual, superstitious acts like destroying a ring, or a ritual chant, or paying someone to intercede with God on my behalf. That sort of superstitious, spiritistic approach to religion does not reflect the God who I worship. He created us in his image, which doesn’t mean that we are invisible and all powerful. It means that he designed us with a built-in guidance book, our conscience, and a natural tendency toward honesty, compassion and upholding justice. We can also reason. And we possess free moral agency, like God (even in our imperfect state). We aren’t robots and can reject the Creator, but not without consequences. There’s only one universe and one set of rules, ultimately.

    We are not to save the world. We are to save ourselves, by being loyal to the Creator which we do, partly, by upholding his standards, not via rituals or anything like that and there’s certainly no place in a true Christian’s life for talismans and magic. It’s all about choice. No one has to choose life. We can choose to disconnect from the Source of life, by self-modifiying into being believers in deceit, inequality and violence (also known as neoconservatism). Or we can choose loyalty to the Creator and his standards and in that way stay connected to the source of life.

  5. Duck says:

    Peter Jackson appears to be a big supporter of the West memphis 3
    here is a pic of him with convicted child killer echols …. https://www.verbicidemagazine.com/2012/12/11/peter-jackson-damien-echols-west-memphis-3-interview/

    William ramsey talks and writes about that case and I’m
    pretty sure that if he is in any way linked with convicted child murderer Echols who is deep into Thelema its not a surprise that he edited out the scouring of the shire – those kind of people are all over political power and what it can do.
    But… more to the topic what happened to the taped talk Tolkien gave where he appeared to predict the NWO? Alex Jones was all over it back some years ago and then the full tape never came out AFAIK….. also on topic is the Abolition of Man by Tolkiens close pal CS Lewis which is so very much a warning against Technocratic ideas in its later chapters.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idgYLTnSzxI
    sorry for the Youtube link 🙁 but Lewis doodle is worth it

    • manbearpig says:

      Well, Duck, I really must thank you warmly for the CS Lewis link. Not out of duty, of course, but desire!

      railing against rampant reason…
      a treatise against the basilisks…
      the all-powerful seeing I vs the I Thou…

      An urgent plea for reconsideration and repentance

      lest there be the irreversible Abolition of Man…

      …and now that’s what the transhumanists are unabashedly clamouring for.

      just for the silly anecdote: at one moment, rather far along, the video suddenly stopped for several minutes, and the circle in the center of the paralyzed screen kept rotating around and around and around as if inducing hypnosis, making a perfectly concentric ring around the word

      “magic”.

      • Duck says:

        🙂 Glad you liked it…
        re weird disks plenty of times I turn off music and vids with anoying background sounds- dont know if its mind control but it dont half give me a headache

  6. zyxzevn says:

    In the Hobbit, the same ring has the power to become invisible.
    It belonged to Gollum, but he lost it in a cave.
    Gollum is a crazy person, who is also addicted to the ring.

    The power of invisibility can also be an allegory of
    the power behind the visible government.

    • Duck says:

      Actually it was kinda good of gollum to keep all that power to himself- no one needs to fear a power man guy who just wants to indulge his own crapulence. HIS greed is far more limited and grasping then the zelot who wants to ‘fix’ you.
      Fear the guy who wants to just make a wonderful Regulated predictable RIGHT world… he will ‘….MAKE you be HAPPY, damit.. why wont you hold still…. you’ll LIKE IT REALLLLLLY…..’ because while greed thinks small idealist utopians think big.

  7. Not Another Not-Bot! says:

    The Ring has relevance only in relation to its maker, and the latter’s nature and stance vis-a-vis the entire created order.Created, as described at the beginning of “The Silmarillion”, by Eru, who first made the Ainur, the Holy Ones, one – and the most gifted in power and knowledge – of whom was Melkor. This Lucifer-like figure upsets the harmonious state of the heavenly setting in which Eru and the Ainur interact in creative endeavours by his desires for the sort of creative power native to the God. Lacking this ability, he becomes perverse in his will, which is expressed by periodic acts of destruction against the world that is subsequently created by Eru, and overseen by the Ainur.

    Sauron is a servant of Melkor, the latter, for his evil acts, the elves give the name Morgoth, “the Dark Enemy of the World.” The same spirit of destructive self-exaltation and desire for godlike supremacy possesses Sauron. It is the same spirit which he invests “The Ring” with. Apart from this fact that the Ring was invested at its creation with the spirit of Sauron,servant of Melkor the satanic figure, the Ring loses its true significance in the novel. Frodo ultimately fails in his mission to destroy the Ring. If not for Gollum, Frodo would have strode away from Mordor with the Ring.

    Of notable significance is the date which the novel gives for the destruction of the Ring and of the empire of Mordor: it takes place on March 25. In the Christian calendar, this marks the feast of the Incarnation, the day when the Eternal Logos becomes man in the womb of the Virgin Mary. In the Gospels, Satan tempts Jesus by offering him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory in exchange for Jesus bowing down to him who claimed rulership of them.

    The allusion to the Incarnation anticipates the sacrificial death on the Cross which Christ accepts in order to ransom humanity from the dominion of the “Prince of this World”. And it is this sacrificial oblation of self, starkly contrasted with the extreme egoism which the Ring tends to engender in its possessor, which spells the fall of Mordor. In contrast,no mere creature was capable of voluntarily relinquishing the Ring to destruction. In sum, it signifies a certain alien spirit, a disorder, which was introduced into the realm of created being, and which no mere creature by itself can truly overcome.

    It cannot be said to signify political power for the simple reason that it is a given in a world which is fast falling under the shadow of evil, and which MUST be carried by SOMEONE to the place of its nativity before the total subjugation of all things by its (the Ring’s) maker.

  8. generalbottlewasher says:

    Having never read the scouring of the shire, I was surprise by the lack of importance given to the cultural moral of the story being omitted by Jackson. Cultivating the good for harvest involves a lot of weeding out of the the bad. The evil always grows back, in one form or another. Having gone through the horror of the war the homecoming is the next job, not to believe its the last job, as your guest sites Sam’s statement.
    This good moral segment, cut from the movie by Jackson, the studio or the producers (TPTSB) wouldn’t ever have made it to the cinema. Too instructional, as fables often are, and that pesky moral of the story truth that usually is rejected by Hollywood for the lie of they lived happily ever after.
    Some of your best productions occur when you let you true self out of the box and have fun. Great piece a work.

    • Duck says:

      “..Having never read the scouring of the shire, I was surprise by the lack of importance given to the cultural moral of the story being omitted by Jackson….”
      He made a movie that was rather pro Child Killer Echols of the WM3- I think its safe to assume that any idea of moral behavior and the importance of being responsible for yourself and not helpless before the government is NOT something any media, HolyWood types will every be interested in pushing- I didnt like the books so it was a revelation to me that they held such an important idea

      • Robert Smith says:

        What’s WM3, who’s this kid killer you’re speaking of? I assume it has nothing to do with the infamous abortionist Gosnell who even praises Nazi Death Camps like Auschwitz, & uses Pro-Abortion stuff from the Bible (yup, there’s a chunk of of Pro-Abortion stuff in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament).I need to explain that I have autism, I’m Leftwing, & I’m Pro-Life, plus I’m not even religious, but not an atheist either.

        • Duck says:

          Robert Smith
          1) West Memphis 3- three young dudes who were convicted (after several confessions) of killing the kids in a weird ritualistic fashion- the apparent master mind ,Damien Echols, was recorded as being a batshit vampire self reporting black magician at TWO hospitals in different states. They were freed after a huge amount of money was spent pushing various counter narratives in the media… a large number of rich and famous people who dont give a toss about the majority of wrongly convicted criminals spent big bucks getting him out of jail (still convicted…) He donated some of his prison book collection to the ‘Crowley sex cult’ OTO and has been decorating his skin with weird magic tatt’s since he got out (Matching one’s with Johnny Depp)
          William Ramsey is a good source- try him on the ‘Opperman Report’ podcast for audio if you dont want to buy his books… also ‘william Ramsey investigates’
          2) ‘… I have autism, I’m Leftwing, & I’m Pro-Life, plus I’m not even religious, but not an atheist either….” Autism is only dangerous if you let your disklike for disorder and high stimulation situations lock you into an overly simplistic rules based way of thinking.
          Left and right wing are terms that arose in the french revolution and as people got killed in the terror its my understanding that the remaining folks would move over to take the empty seats…. and how can you be a non-atheist non religious person? Agnostic thinking is just fence sitting but in PRACTICE your thinking will be in one or other camp

        • Duck says:

          Robert Smith
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAMS-XaQL5E found a link…edit
          1) West Memphis 3- three young dudes who were convicted (after several confessions) of killing the kids in a weird ritualistic fashion- the apparent master mind ,Damien Echols, was recorded as being a batshit vampire self reporting black magician at TWO hospitals in different states. They were freed after a huge amount of money was spent pushing various counter narratives in the media… a large number of rich and famous people who dont give a toss about the majority of wrongly convicted criminals spent big bucks getting him out of jail (still convicted…) He donated some of his prison book collection to the ‘Crowley sex cult’ OTO and has been decorating his skin with weird magic tatt’s since he got out (Matching one’s with Johnny Depp)
          William Ramsey is a good source- try him on the ‘Opperman Report’ podcast for audio if you dont want to buy his books… also ‘william Ramsey investigates’
          2) ‘… I have autism, I’m Leftwing, & I’m Pro-Life, plus I’m not even religious, but not an atheist either….” Autism is only dangerous if you let your disklike for disorder and high stimulation situations lock you into an overly simplistic rules based way of thinking.
          Left and right wing are terms that arose in the french revolution and as people got killed in the terror its my understanding that the remaining folks would move over to take the empty seats…. and how can you be a non-atheist non religious person? Agnostic thinking is just fence sitting but in PRACTICE your thinking will be in one or other camp

  9. Not Another Not-Bot! says:

    The Ring has relevance only in relation to its maker, and the latter’s nature and stance vis-a-vis the entire created order.Created, as described at the beginning of “The Silmarillion”, by Eru, who first made the Ainur, the Holy Ones, one – and the most gifted in power and knowledge – of whom was Melkor. This Lucifer-like figure upsets the harmonious state of the heavenly setting in which Eru and the Ainur interact in creative endeavours by his desires for the sort of creative power native to the God. Lacking this ability, he becomes perverse in his will, which is expressed by periodic acts of destruction against the world that is subsequently created by Eru, and overseen by the Ainur.

    Sauron is a servant of Melkor, the latter, for his evil acts, the elves give the name Morgoth, “the Dark Enemy of the World.” The same spirit of destructive self-exaltation and desire for godlike supremacy possesses Sauron. It is the same spirit which he invests “The Ring” with. Apart from this fact that the Ring was invested at its creation with the spirit of Sauron,servant of Melkor the satanic figure, the Ring loses its true significance in the novel. Frodo ultimately fails in his mission to destroy the Ring. If not for Gollum, Frodo would have strode away from Mordor with the Ring.

    Of notable significance is the date which the novel gives for the destruction of the Ring and of the empire of Mordor: it takes place on March 25. In the Christian calendar, this marks the feast of the Incarnation, the day when the Eternal Logos becomes man in the womb of the Virgin Mary. In the Gospels, Satan tempts Jesus by offering him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory in exchange for Jesus bowing down to him who claimed rulership of them.

    The allusion to the Incarnation anticipates the sacrificial death on the Cross which Christ accepts in order to ransom humanity from the dominion of the “Prince of this World”. And this sacrificial oblation of self is starkly contrasted with the extreme egoism which the Ring tends to engender in its possessor, and which spells the demise of the bewitching power of its maker. In contrast to the journey of Christ to the hill of Calvary. As signified by the failure of the otherwise excellent fellow,Frodo, to complete his mission, the message is that no mere creature is capable of voluntarily destroying the Ring, which is to say, put an end to the power of evil in the world.

    In sum, it signifies a certain alien spirit, a disorder, which was introduced into the realm of created being, and which no mere creature by itself can truly overcome.

    It cannot be said to signify political power for the simple reason that it is a given in a world which is fast falling under the shadow of evil, and which MUST be carried by SOMEONE to the place of its nativity before the total subjugation of all things by its (the Ring’s) maker.

  10. Ethan Hunter says:

    Great interview and blast from the past!

    I just wanted to comment that I am surprised that the Eye of Mordor was not discussed as a possible metaphor for the dark force behind the NWO.

    We see the “all-seeing eye” motif in a lot of conspiracy circles and literature. While the Masons view it as the Grand Architect of the Universe or Divine Providence…other secret societies like the Illuminati viewed it as Elite whom would be elected to oversee society becoming a secularist, non-religious world with the State as the ultimate arbiter of morals and regulations on human affairs and activity.

    The latter – the original Bavarian Illuminati vision – I often see as rather sinister because of the corrupting influence of power in so few of a group of feudalist rulers.

    I kind of see the Eye of Mordor as the more sinister rendition of the all-seeing eye and its negative influence in Middle-Earth being sort of an allegory for the negative influence of the Secret Cabals of today on international affairs.

    Just a thought. Great material and look forward to more in the future.

    Ethan 🙂

  11. a822 says:

    Could never get around this one,
    not really big on elves and fantasy as a whole,
    tried Lord Dunsany once, has merits, but not my thing.
    The movies didn’t have much appeal either.
    I actually chanced upon « Bad Taste » recently,
    Jackson’s first effort and was suprised to actually enjoy it
    way more than this big budget LOTR stuff.
    Still, a great episode and a link to another excellent serie :
    The Libertarian Tradition with Jeff Riggenbach
    episode on Tolkien :
    https://mises.org/library/jrr-tolkien-libertarian

  12. HomeRemedySupply says:

    “The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien” – ANARCHY
    https://peacerequiresanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/the-letters-of-jrr-tolkien/

    From a letter to Christopher Tolkien [from his father J.R.R. Tolkien] 29 November 1943
    [In the summer of 1943, Christopher, then aged eighteen, was called up into the Royal Air Force. When this letter was written, he was at a training camp in Manchester.]

    EXCERPTS
    “My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) – or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy…

    “…Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people…

    …Anyway the proper study of Man is anything but Man; and the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.….

  13. HomeRemedySupply says:

    “Tolkien v. Power” from an article at The Mises Institute
    https://mises.org/library/tolkien-v-power
    (In addition, some quotes from the story are in the article.)

    EXCERPTS of Tolkien’s QUOTES
    ~~ “You can make the Ring into an allegory of our own time, if you like: and allegory of the inevitable fate that waits for all attempts to defeat evil power by power.”

    ~~ “Power is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales.”

    ~~ “The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on.”

    ~~ “Of course my story is not an allegory of Atomic power, but of Power (exerted for domination).”

    ~~ “I am not a ‘democrat’ only because ‘humility’ and equality are spiritual principles corrupted by the attempt to mechanize and formalize them, with the result that we get not universal smallness and humility, but universal greatness and pride, till some Orc gets hold of a ring of power–and then we get and are getting slavery.”

  14. brian.s says:

    While all myth (story) has some ‘evil’ element I see LOTR as a reflection of the reader’s consciousness – and not as a parallel of the reader’s world. While you seek in the world you are diverted from your consciousness.

    All personae of a dream or drama are cast out of the dreamer’s mind. Read your mind instead of being run unawares.

    Everyone has a possession and control ‘mind’ – that actually dispossess us of a shared awareness and freedom of being – and relinquishing this is our fundamental honesty to being.

    Jesus exemplified release of the identity in power OVER others. But he was no doormat.

    The idea of a Second Coming can be seen as a like decision in individuals to shift from power set over – to power shared with. This is the growing of a new mind in place of the old.

    The foundation to Sauron’s power – symbolised in the massively defended tower was in deceiving others into partaking of it’s lure. all this was undone in the undoing of the Ring.

    A fundamental sense of self-interest run as a sense of power and protection. This can be seen in many facets of character and setting in LOTR. But they all feed into and are the working out of the ‘Fall’ which has its own parallel in Tolkien’s Silmarillion that LOTR was set in as being a delivering from evil by a willingness to give it up.

    I found the interview missed the point from the outset.

    The film also missed the point and did what most films do – which is to bury and distort the cultural gift of the original.

    Myth is the archetype of our narrative identity – and yet we are not created by a mythic representation but in and by Life Itself. Resonances of intuitive recognition can serve the opening of the heart to what cannot be defined or described because any more than light can shine on itself.

    Recognising our hitherto hidden correspondences with evil or destructive outcomes is the Call to be undone of them – though in the first instance we may simply FLEE the FEAR! But as something that has opened or been exposed within our ‘Shire’ or bubble reality.

    Everyone is responsible for their own fear or self-division – but in truth no one is alone. Fear sets us apart and alone and in need of defence against threat projected out. And so releasing fear as the basis of our identity is one in all – that we may describe as the undoing of an entanglement in lies or illusion made and be-lived real.

    Each alone has a unique unfolding path of discovery – within the whole and yet we are all within each other.
    Narrative is a linear structure of ‘meanings’ but Meaning Itself is timeless.

    There is much in Tolkien that speaks to a false or loveless technologism that begins in the thought of deceit, manipulation and a private or personal sense of specialness made precious – as if to be above or secretly invisible to hated or feared others.

  15. brian.s says:

    Oops – forgot to check the box

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