Interview 1355 – Ryan X. Charles Introduces Yours.org

04/16/201864 Comments

Continuing our series exploring Social Media Alternatives, this week we talk to Ryan X. Charles about Yours.org.

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64 comments

  1. anonymint ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Afaik, Yours.org has several significant weaknesses:

    1. Paying rewards to others causes (in many countries) a capital gain taxable event for the payer (i.e. curator) and an income taxable event for the payee (i.e. author). I wrote a blog recently about this issue.

    2. Although they’ve gamified upvoting to some extent, we must remember that tipping doesn’t work as explained in the blog ChangeTip Must Die. There’s a hen-egg dilemma involved in their formulation of a MLM scheme.

    3. Last time I checked their progress and design in 2016, afair they’re storing the hash of their data on the Bitcoin ledger, so this means very slow confirmation times and lack of scaling. Simply can’t scale up a social network on that ledger. Perhaps they’ve changed ledgers since then or attempting some offchain time-locked channels? I hear in the video that Ryan mentioned Bitcoin Cash which also won’t scale to millions of social networking users. Ethereum doesn’t scale yet though. My point is they didn’t have expertise on creating a new ledger design when I last checked. Note I didn’t have time to go research details of their changes since 2016.

    4. Ned at Steem has pointed out that these other social networks don’t have a decentralized, objectivized method of rewarding tokens for onboarding. Ned pointed out that these centralized administrated platforms are potentially regulated by FinCEN and the SEC. Ryan is incorrect if they are issuing tokens then they are a centralized administrator per recent FinCEN guidance about ICOs (even if given away for free). I have pointed out in the comments of the prior installment of this Corbett series that Steem’s reward and onboarding mechanism is a power vacuum and thus inherently asymmetrical (aka top-down corrupted).

  2. JPascale ( User Karma: 1 ) says:

    Anything incentivized by money can’t lead to an objective opinion; if I want to get paid I’ll post something that I know I’ll get paid for, even though I don’t really believe it (lookup Dan Ariely). We should be motivated to speak freely with no fear of being banned or kicked out of some social media network for not saying what is expected or in their policy guidelines. A social media network should be, in my opinion, run by the people, where the people can discuss or hide or not pay attention to other peoples comments or post or beach photos or whatever. Social media anarchy, but the true meaning of anarchy. Cheers from the Basque Country.

  3. The Last American Vagabond ( User Karma: 1 ) says:

    Awesome, thanks for sharing this James. I already joined and posted a few links, not even full articles, and I already have some bitcoin cash from likes, pretty damn cool.

  4. sean.h ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Comment on actual test use of Yours.org: Images are not supported *within* the actual site. All images must already be located somewhere else on the web and then linked to. So if you, like me, wanted to tell or share a story using images, you’d need to have already told or shared such a story somewhere else. (If I wanted to do that, I’d have done it and not bothered with Yours.org.) Currently yours.org only supports textual original content (or perhaps a link to text you already created somewhere else) and the editing or composition tools are very limited. Lastly once you create a Yours.org account (as I did to test it) you can not delete the account. The Yours.org email customer service (that’s all there is) stated they may add these image and deletion features in the future but that does not resolve the immediate need. For these reasons alone I do not plan to use Yours.org, at this time.

    1. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

      Thanks. Normal stuff for new ventures, but while it makes it cumbersome for now, savvier people than me are able to make hay with that detail. I always wind up shooting my laptop when going through things like that! 12 ga is awful tough on computers. JimBob who never really got the slide ruler down, much less some of this stuff that’s going on nowadays.

  5. HomeRemedySupply ( User Karma: 38 ) says:

    I may try this “Yours.org”, because, like a pair of shoes, you really don’t know how they fit until you put them on and walk for awhile.

    But it hinges on my delegation of time (of which there is a limited supply) and also on the useful, pragmatic applications for my needs.

  6. Leigh ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I tried to partispate in Steemit in all senses of the word but it has been completely over-taken with non-genuine bots and frankly I felt like it was a waste of my time. Even those who are genuine participators don’t show any genuine love to new starters. Some may argue different, like Dan Dicks / James Corbett but there’s not “value” to be had for an average joe(ann) like me. I’ll try Yours. Thanks for bringing it to our attention JC. Failing that, can’t we just go back to the good ol’ days of land-lines, pirate radio and libraries?!

    1. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

      Leigh
      For Local social action in the real world something more like a local BBS might be better for people then Twitter or Youtube

  7. RobinHood77 ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    Interesting ideas.

    One potential problem though.

    The government never “runs out of money”, they just print more of it.

    1. Mark K. P. ( User Karma: 1 ) says:

      no, the government issues bonds, not money. Governments borrow money, at compound interest, from private banks which are the agencies that create money, including the printed component (only a tiny percentage). The rare governments that DO create their own money get bombed out of existence by the western powers which protect the private money creation privilege. Recent examples, Nazi Germany and Libya

    2. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

      Don’t worry, Peter Schiff says the world economic meltdown will happen this month. So there’s that. JimBob who always tries to see the bright side of things.

  8. NES ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    The positive–posting comments is not free so ugly individual commenters are decreased or eliminated. Good thing.

    However, there was no discussion of key issues. If anyone should talk about these it should be the CEO.

    o How does this business model differ from multi-level marketing made famous by Amway products? (Early posters get paid by other posters for being first.)

    o Policy on data collection AND removal of one’s personal data? Removal of private data is as important as protecting it. (FB never deletes data and state so in their policy. Every key stroke one sends through belongs to them. That’s why Zuck has so much to sell.

    o Privacy protection?

    o As in the first comment above, I see big problems with influence peddlers who are embedded in the State and big corporations. They have resources to dig into the site, create marketing content for themselves and get paid for it.

    1. zyxzevn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

      o Privacy protection?

      Good point.

      Zyxzevn
      voted $0.50 on “Christy undressing”
      voted $0.20 on “Singing for James Corbett”
      voted $2.00 for comment “F* you too”

  9. LenZoo ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    In the end, it’s how do we buy food with virtual crypto currencies?

    Try to explain it here where I live… it’d be like you’re coming from Mars.
    Maybe it just needs some time, and in the meantime I will grow some tomatoes to trade in the summer 😉

    1. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

      Don’t worry. I just had all the financial videos show up on my youboob startpage and they said all currencies are going to zero this month anyway. JimBob who is trying to show the bright side of things but really sucks at it.

  10. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

    Well, I just signed up. Don’t have a BTC (or any crypto) account, so nothing yet. But, I’ll give anything a shot.JimBob who ain’t really all that social anyway.

  11. zyxzevn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

    I think it is too easy for organizations to sponsor their own posts (and comments), and to block opposition with a high comment charge. This would mean that companies like Monsanto could create top-posts.

    Where does this idea come from that money is the best way to control votes or discussions? I also see it in steemit and minds. Is it an American thing?

    1. weilunion ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

      The whole thing smells like a digital Dark Ages.

      “You can make money, You can make money””

      So, we are going to be living in a world where less than .0001% own everything and we will hustle for 25 cents for a comment.

      And of course, we will be tethered to the internet.

      This micro economy has no future. It is an informal economy, no different than trying to sell beauty products or herbal relief, or for that matter selling banana bread in the Banana Republic.

      Meanwhile, we will be content to ‘rent’our lives from the global capitalist order, suffer their wars, etc. by disengaging from any form of formal economy and become peons.

      The Internet itself is destroying our brains, the way we think of ourselves, the way we think of others.

      We are entering a Digital Dark Ages, not much different than the long thousand years from the disintegration of Rome to the Renaissance.

      I find it sad that people must now be told to think of themselves as little rational profit maximizers throwing themselves out, through the computer, to a ‘free market’, that consists of snake oil salesman and product hustlers.

      America, to name one distinct country, has always been a hustler country, from the days of the Pilgrams. to the land acquisitions by force from the Native Americans and Japanese.

      Now we are told we have no power other than to try to rake in a few schekkels a day for profit.

      1. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

        weilunion
        If people just choose to go online to get shekels then that kinda makes them BY DEFAULT pretty useless as anything other then entertainers.
        People who just listen to entertainers online are not really going to do more then move the deck chairs on the titanic around.
        Your right that the net is changing, not exactly a digital dark ages but I predict that a lot of free content and services will be gone in a couple of years as the investors bleeding money into junk like YouTube get sick of their losses. People are used to getting a ton of free content and I predict that they will be VERY unhappy when the info or vid they want is behind a paywall or some such… advertizing will simply not pay for as much free stuff as we like to consume and, in a very real sense, it could be good if folks waste less time on trash and focus on getting something useful from their time online. The guy on the Lunduke Show has been experimenting with using his computers “like its 1989!” and being offline except when doing specific tasks. He reported a huge increase i productivity.
        In a way we’d also be better off with something like the old BBS systems where folks lived close enough to actually MEET each other regularly if they chose to. (BBS the Documentry was kinda interesting and is on You Tube)
        People can learn a ton from the net (I did) but its a time waster and a pit of mind traps (Porn, social media,rant of the week and random crud you scratch thru like a chicken in dirt….)
        If people want to make the world better then they will do it only with local people they actually know and meet.
        Who the hell is gonna trust some pleb you only know off skype?

        1. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

          “….a lot of free content and services will be gone in a couple of years….”

          I doubt.

          Internet and free stuff is Soma of our brave new world.

          Second, they need data from us to build their Artificial Intelligence.

          1. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

            mik
            you have a point on Soma, but it still needs money to make it.
            Personally I dont think theres one big conspiracy planning everythng and while a smart phone/socialmedia/tv/ect addicted population benefits some of the power groups those groups cant just will them to exist.
            The people that work in those companies need to be paid, the stuff they use needs to be bought. They can distort the market so it offers what they want us to have but in the end if they consume more resources then they can attract they will go under.
            Second point on AI i dont think a bunch of people on the net are important to building AI, but I could be wrong. I just cant see what they would need from us for that

            1. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

              “….a bunch of people on the net are important to building AI…”

              Yes, people are not important, just data they provide.
              Data is the most important ingredient for building AI. Learning algorithms, neural networks structures are useless without good data. And lots of data, best would be all data.

      2. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

        I don’t think the intent is to have most people make a living from posting on their sites. Though it is true that the more desperate we are to pay our bills, the more we will try to do so. However, there is nothing inherently wrong with making money from posting. I think James is a good example of how it can be done correctly. In my version of capitalism, the money you earn is the gauge by which you can determine if your idea/business/whatever is something society values. Money itself isn’t that important, excepting for what I can do/get with it. JimBob who ain’t got much money, but he would gladly take a few schekkels from you today for a few more back next Tuesday.

    2. manbearpig ( User Karma: 26 ) says:

      reputation, incentives, gameifying…

      -“Where does this idea come from that money is the best way to control votes or discussions? I also see it in steemit and minds. Is it an American thing?” queries zyxzevn

      -“What would you suggest as a better measure of the value of ideas?” replies Duck

      who goes on to answer his own rhetorical question in a roundabout way –
      and the answer isn’t monetary payments.

      The measure of value of ideas is drawing inspiration from and living by them, individually. Walking the talk.

      According to Duck’s demonstration people buy their least idealistic ideas opting for cheap solutions that don’t require effort.

      In such an incentivized idea forum, participants will buy their reputation of idealistic e-entity but if they’re not ready to implement the idea, practically, in their everyday life then

      incentivizing, gameifying and reputation management becomes armchair idealism at best and propaganda, behavioral studies or social engineering

      for better or worse.

      Remember how much fitter you felt once you’d bought that pass to the gym that you didn’t end up using that much after all…?

      and don’t forget, the trolls have unlimited monetary resources…

      1. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

        Manbearpig
        True… the sad fact is that most people are lazy.
        Most will only act or take notice of things things when they directly hurt them, and are confused into passivity when the source of their problems is not readily/easily knowable.
        I remember thinking when they set up GAB that all the people with stuff that normal people should hear were going to be on a platform where they were not heard. If everyone drops twitter the same thing will happen as folks settle into their own echo chambers…. on the other hand political issues will in the end be decided by the people that care the most.
        As long as the Internet has a DIVERSITY of competing platforms then any amount of money will find it hard to reimpose the old style of media dominance, and again no amount of money is going to be able to drown out what people want to hear- that takes a monopoly on force applied via laws and regulations.

        1. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

          As long as the Internet has a DIVERSITY of competing platforms then any amount of money will find it hard to reimpose the old style of media dominance, and again no amount of money is going to be able to drown out what people want to hear- that takes a monopoly on force applied via laws and regulations.

          This is actually how we ARE winning right now. Despite the MSM’s insistence (and the ALT-MED as well), the alt-media is no longer the alternative. The MSM is merely the geezer channel. Most of James’ videos have more hits than most of the MSM videos. And he is but one of thousands and thousands of sites. And this is just in the internet news.
          In the physical world, we have the same thing going on in all sorts of areas. Seed sharing, food banks, literally tens of thousands of revolutions, all de-centralized. The key is community involvement. We are winning though. That’s important to remember. And we cannot lose. We are hard-wired to be free. JimBob whose freedom circuit has vacuum tubes.

          Of course, Congress is drafting legislation to stop all this freedom talk. Like that will work.

      2. zyxzevn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

        > .. the trolls have unlimited monetary resources…

        I think you mean the companies, military, agencies and criminals.
        Who are sometimes the same.

        On reddit we can see this happening. Washington post has become a big sponsor. Correct the record managed the opinions on Hillary. The /politics and /bestof is purely one-side, as opposing opinions can be banned (from the site).
        There are also bots that search for certain keywords, and these trigger responses. Just say something bad about GMO, and you get your monsanto-fan-bot. I often have encountered some popular scientist/student that maniacally tries to convince others that there is nothing wrong certain science. You may quickly find them if you ask questions about climate change models.
        My most downvoted replies are where I question the popular opinion.

        The good parts on it are in specialized subreddits, where sane people discuss and share information. You can ban people from your subreddit. But this makes it harder to reach other sane people.

        On steemit I tried to discuss with someone on science, but did not get a respond. The problem was that his post seemed just a copy from popular science. It contained some errors and this conflicted with real science. I tried to do it in a supportive way, but I don’t think the poster actually understood the science.

        On yours.com, I would need to spend money to explain a problem in a post. This would leave any post unchallenged, and replies that support the wrong post would get supported back again.
        This could lead to circle-jerking (support each other’s popular opinion).

        For example, on yours.com I can make a contribution about how great the white helmets are. I could refer to all kinds of mainstream sources, and get support from many people that believe in the fairytale.

        I could also place an article that criticizes bit-coin, based on low support on real markets and based on the use of it by criminals.
        While it might be a good criticism, it would be very unpopular,
        so I would not get money from it.
        So if I want money on yours, it is better to follow the popular lie.

        I see the same thing on steemit where the popular articles are about “how to make money of steemit” and variants.

        I do have a solution by combining steemit with something like “deliberation”. http://cci.mit.edu/klein/deliberatorium.html
        The deliberation example shows how they try to find solutions for the
        “carbon emission problem”, so it is not really working well. It did
        not put unpopular ideas in the example, but it can and should.

        1. manbearpig ( User Karma: 26 ) says:

          Thanks for your explanatory reply!

          (My brain’s on vacation and will take a little time to absorb all the finer points of your breakdown. But EFHARISTO (for your time and effort!))

          And you’re right, by “trolls” I meant what I considered to be the most powerful and dangerous trolls.

          But perhaps the Sunstein bots, both human and algorithmic, are NOT the most dangerous…

          maybe it’s the groupthink trolls after all…

          morning coffee now…

    3. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

      What would you suggest as a better measure of the value of ideas?
      If people dont value an idea enough to give at least “some” money to it then its likely a bad idea, thats pretty much like peoples STATED preferences vs their ACTUAL preferences which are shown in where they spend their money. (for example folks might say “I VALUE Jobs for people in my country!” but if they then spend their money on cheaper Chinese goods then its pretty clear that they value LOW PRICE more.)
      You are correct that the distortion of huge amounts of money mess up that system, but since most of the people who whine and complain about the actions of x y and z Mega-Corp or NewsMagnate STILL BUY THEIR STUFF its clear what most people value 🙁
      The idea of giving people WHO PAY THE TAXES A SAY IN SPENDING THEM is actually a British one… from it grew the parlimentry system and you cant help but say it worked pretty well for most people for a long time when compared to many others. Hardly paradise though… lol

      1. Stronghorse ( User Karma: 1 ) says:

        While I agree with your comment, to a degree Duck. It does make the assumption that everyone has a choice in what they purchase, which is often not the case at all.
        There are places in this world where little, or no choice is available. There are also a large portion of society that simply have to watch literally every cent they spend, or they may not be able to eat regularly, or may not be able to pay for needed medications. This segment of the population is growing rapidly also. Sad but true.
        So to say that these people prefer cheap junk from China,(Example Only!), is not fair because while they might prefer to have better quality in what they purchase, they may have to make choices that go against their true desires. OR, they may live somewhere that no choices are provided, and it’s either buy the cheap crap, or go without.
        Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out what you may not have considered, or been aware of at all.

            1. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

              Are you having a problem with “red menace”?

              Is the quote to hard to wrap your mind around it and write something about it (hopefully meaningful)?

              1. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

                But you wouldn’t be able to understand, because what a leftist is saying is not worth of your attention, processing time….because you already made a choice.

                How condescending. And yet, you offer no evidence of your brilliance. I call you a leftist because that is the side of the fence that never engages in true debate. Never accepts logic as their weapon of choice. I don’t call Marxism evil. I call it incredibly stupid. JimBob who gets tired of people too cowardly to attack people straight up, and yet claim superiority. Hint: You’re not. You are simply employing standard weak thinking models. Why? Who cares.

              2. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

                You can take mine personally. After all, all you’ve done is offer gas and demand we supply proof. Give us a rational basis for your argument. Whatever your argument really is since you have only told us you have nothing but self-serving platitudes to offer us in support of your claimed superiority. Typical lazy thinking. I’m thinking you’re wondering why your not doing better. Hint: I don’t think it’s anybody’s fault other than your own. JimBob who don’t cotton to people putting on airs when all they’ve got is gas.

              3. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

                Mik
                Dont take what I said as an attack on you, your ego or worth as a person.
                You made statements later about Marx and Prof WOlff and such like and you got peoples take on them. Its the internet so its ok to disagree and its ok to be wrong and its ok to argue.
                I dont want you to feel like its a personal attack on you if I say what you said was wrong… I’ve been shown up as wrong often. I will be again.
                Its not quite the dielectic, but the free market of ideas evolving better answers and knowledge

              4. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

                It all started with

                weilunion:
                “We all make choices but we do not all choose the circumstances within which we make them.” Karl Marx

                Then some people had issues with author of this quote, not with a quote itself one would expect,
                then I started with:

                “Are you having a problem with “red menace”?
                Is the quote to hard to wrap your mind around it and write something about it (hopefully meaningful)?”

              5. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

                All you give is nothing to work with and claim we are unreasonable. You want central planning? You think Marx was intelligent? Tell us what makes Marx such a god in your eyes? Honestly, I can’t find anything about him that appeals to me. Just another parasitic psychopath whom history gave a shout out to because there is a lotta room for whack jobs. You give us nothing. Expect us to supply all the info. Please supply a rational argument. Saying we think your too leftist isn’t one. I’m saying your too vague and superficial to bother with. JimBob who gets tired of stupid people who ain’t figured out that socialism ain’t never worked and never will because it goes against anything that makes any sense whatsoever.

                And by the way, you are the one engaging in ad hominem. Give us something to chew on besides those soured grapes. They taste nasty as central planners are horrible farmers.

              6. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

                Mik
                “..Trying to show you another perspective you name as bait and switch. ..”
                NO.. not at all, I was just saying argue ONE thing at a time, you cant ever find the truth if your changing the paramiters of the argument

                “..half the problem..”
                Well, maybe your right, but its the half the of problem THAT PEOPLE CAN SOLVE THEMSELVES, waiting for the issue to be solved from outside is slave thinking. Hence my peterson ref that you need to be able to clean your room BEFORE you can clean the world. The worlds too big, I cant control anything but ME.

                “..Society is not just a sum of individuals, relations between individual and society go both ways, therefore you are wrong…” You are right it goes both ways… strong families make better society and a good society strengthens the family. And “holy s%^&” I totally believe that if everyone grew up in a loving nurturing family structure society would be wonderful for almost everyone…. Even without any government help for anyone.
                Dont you believe that? I can provide evidence that social/education/economic issues have become WORSE since the family began to decline and broken homes and lack of a father is statistically the number one factor in ending up poor or in jail.
                Seriously, not being rude, but if you dont think family matters then please tell me why.

                “..That is all you can say about him? You don’t know or you didn’t get anything else?…”
                Dude, I remembered him when I saw his pic from a talk I listened too months ago…seriously, not like I know everyone. That said he flat out stated that Uber was a scam because it undercut the taxi monolpoly granted by the government to protect people AND HE WAS FACTUALLY IN ERROR about taxi insurance in the past.

                “..I have something to say, but that would be lengthy, essay size…” Then WRITE IT and convince people and examine your own thinking and let people find the errors. Find errors in MY solutions , please do because I have changed my mind on a ton of things I can name in just the last 10 years or so. Corbett said that onece…. Write what you know down then ask HOW you know it and if its really provable. Put it on Steemit or Your.org or something!

                “…I mean, you are from US and marxism=evil,bad is a default position there….” Look, aside from killing more people then Fascism did as an ideology Marxism is A FAILED SYSTEM, it could not produce the goods people wanted, it could not provide the lives they wanted and far from making a Utopian world where the state whithered away its disregard for basic facts about human nature and led to a state where the State became EVEN MORE POWERFUL and freedom became even less for most people then under free market capitalist system ever. It was WORSE then the slave holding south in that a greater % of the population were in practice owned property (of the state rather then slave holders) and of those those that ran it.
                The Same ideas of “tecnocracy” are hoping to enslave you right now, today. A small group deciding what you should want and value and do

              7. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

                almost forgot

                “…and poor people had (almost) no choices what would you suggest?”

                I have something to say, but that would be lengthy, essay size.

                But you wouldn’t be able to understand, because what a leftist is saying is not worth of your attention, processing time….because you already made a choice.

                But did you really made a choice? I mean, you are from US and marxism=evil,bad is a default position there and you maybe just adopted your stance not choose.

              8. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

                Yo man, that is boring.
                Go and see where and how I entered this “debate”.

                “…bait and switch like when you went from the US poor to “the world” poor.”
                Trying to show you another perspective you name as bait and switch.

                “…the cause of poverty is ignorance and training and in some cases stupidity ….”
                Yes, but that doesn’t cover even half of the problem.

                “Fix yourself and your family and society fixes itself.”
                Holy shit, you really believe this.
                Society is not just a sum of individuals, relations between individual and society go both ways, therefore you are wrong.

                “Ahh I know that dude, Wolff,….” blah, blah,….
                That is all you can say about him? You don’t know or you didn’t get anything else?

                Stay in your echo-chamber if that is your choice.

              9. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

                Mik
                Ahh I know that dude, Wolff, (apt name) saw his talking about Uber ‘being an old scam’ and his Full of %$#$% … his idea that Government set up Taxi monolopies to “protect the people” is HISTORICALLY UNTRUE, cabbies didnt have insurance back then the monopoly power is and always has been to keep people OUT OF THE MARKET.
                That talk makes him sound stupid… the guy is talking basic CENTRAL PLANNING , an old and horrible idea that would give us the Minitel rather then the internet and would Government Truth News rather then the Corbett report.
                Wanting to earn money and giving people a service or goods for that money is way moreefficent then Central planning .
                His answer will always be More power to people like him to fix the problem they caused with their last intervention… STAE-ISM at its very very worst

              10. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

                Mik
                I cant help but feel this is bait and switch like when you went from the US poor to “the world” poor.
                “…Ok, we do agree there are some limitations about poor people choice, but most probably we won’t agree about significance of limitations (I’m sure you would downplay it)…”
                We agree that ALL HUMAN BEINGS are limited in their choices, from rich to poor. I dont downplay poverty…the cause of poverty is ignorance and training and in some cases stupidity and in a very few cases lazyness. However EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT and poor people had (almost) no choices what would you suggest?
                Assuming you want to get people out of poverty then THE ONLY way that will happen is when they have something of value to sell (their now almost valueless labour or their skills) and the only way to give them skills (esp sjkills to make healthful success creating choices) is by education and the basis of education IS THE FAMILY, The Community grows from the family not the other way around.
                Welfare, globalization and crack destroyed the black family. But… NO ONE FORCED anyone to use CIA smuggled drugs, it was their own stupid horrible choice. No one makes anyone eat bad food and grow obese and die from it. No one makes single mothers raise their kids poorly so they grow up with few values.
                Fix yourself and your family and society fixes itself.
                Now quickly on the other points…
                a)not desperate MArx was a horrible parasite with psycopathic behaviours (grandious/parasitic/low empathy ect)easily as bad a person as Hitler or Bundy just with less personal opportunity to act)
                b)Peterson isnt great (psyco-ology …meh) and his appeal worries me in that he is having to act as some kind of surrogate father figure for a bunch of people. People needing him to fill that role points to a hole in their upbringing… kinda like “The Culture of Narcissism” by Lasch is reallllllly in full swing
                I’ll put your book on my list, but I’m kinda lazy these days and have a shelf of about 20 ish books I really ought to have gotten at already

              11. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

                @duck

                Ok, we do agree there are some limitations about poor people choice, but most probably we won’t agree about significance of limitations (I’m sure you would downplay it).

                “…you cant fix the world if you cant clean your bed room…”
                What is this? New Age repacked by Peterson. Beware of him and anyone who uses preacher’s language (lots of archetypes, vague language on purpose,…)
                What do you think about this?
                Jordan Peterson: “I take antidepressants & will forever”
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x35Rbe81vkU

                Are you so desperate you had to put Marx and
                some creatures to the same sentence?

                Well you know, I think both left and right are sometimes wrong while sometimes right, but you first have to try to understand both positions.
                For you I’m leftist, for my leftists friends I’m leaning to the right. Funny.
                While we are squabbling those at the top live their “beautiful” undeserved lives. Tragedy, I hope you agree.

                For better understanding marxism I recommend you Richard D. Wolff.( I don’t endorse him 100%)

              12. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

                mik
                “Poor people CANNOT make certain choices is what traps so many of them IN POVERTY.
                By CANNOT I mean it’s out of their domain.”
                Dude…Can ANYONE decide to do something thats ‘outside their domain” ?? Everyone has limitations on what they can and cant do based on their knowledge, energy and resources. Soros Cant decide to live forever, I cant give a million bucks to the Corbett report, EVERYONE has limitations.
                Now, that said the poor in the USA have a TON of choices and a TON of chances to get ahead, much more then poor folks else where in the world. Like that Peterson dude said, you cant fix the world if you cant clean your bed room- worry about what you can affect before you dream about things you cant.
                As for poor people elsewhere even THEY have got choices, not as good and not as many as here but still some – micro credit and helping individuals has helped people a ton more then the central planning and big projects that endebt their countries.
                As for Marx being right about ‘some things’… well so was Hitler and Ted Bundy and the unibomber. Sorry, but if someone is an actual disgusting human being who lives in ways against their stated values then why would ANYONE trust anything they say?
                ‘The TRUTH’ is that we all have limits on what we can do but if we dont act to improve ourselves and our own lot then those who pretend to care will take everything we have and everything we are.

              13. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

                You don’t think Marx was insane? Have you ever read his poetry? How can anyone believe he wasn’t? What I said wasn’t an ad hominem attack; it was the reason why I find any quote by Marx hilarious. He was absolutely insane. After living in Florida for the last 14 years, I’ve gotten to be pretty good at spotting crazy. Please tell me something about him that demonstrates his sanity. Or will you just diss me without backing up your apparent claim that he wasn’t absolutely insane. JimBob who believes that anyone who thinks socialism/communism is a good idea ain’t got a full deck. By the way, one of my grandfathers was a farmer in the dust bowls of Kansas. He died a multi-millionaire. After losing everything many times. The other was born with money but pissed it all away. It’s not circumstances that trap us; it’s our reaction to our circumstances that trap us. Losers just never accept opportunity when it knocks.

              14. mik ( User Karma: 2 ) says:

                @I Shot Santa
                sure, it must be true because you say so. You are proven great thinker therefore you are allowed to use ad hominem.

                @duck

                “…people DO have choices in the western world…”
                What about the rest of the world? That doesn’t matter?
                Try to ponder on this.

                Stealing Africa – Why Poverty?
                http://bit.ly/25ylubE

                Regarding Marx, you are not able to distinguish between idea (Marxism) and application of idea (ex-socialist states) because of western indoctrination.
                Marx was right about some things.

                “The lie that poor people MUST make certain choices is what traps so many of them IN POVERTY.”

                The Truth

                Poor people CANNOT make certain choices is what traps so many of them IN POVERTY.
                By CANNOT I mean it’s out of their domain.

              15. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

                Mik
                Well… I did point out that people DO have choices in the western world- choices that MArxist systems have generally tried to deny to their subjects. The lack of “user-feedback” was why these systems were so horrible as people who made stuff that no one wanted were still able to get rewards thanks to central planning.
                The lie that poor people MUST make certain choices is what traps so many of them IN POVERTY. Seen it with members of my own family who blame bad choices on “having to do it”
                On a personal note Marx was pretty much a parasite scumbag who many of his own followers would describe (were they to use their own metric upon him) as a rapist in that he impregnated an unpaid servant in his household and tried to conceal his paternity/

              16. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

                No. Marx is just hilarious. I never miss an opportunity to poke stupid. Marx was not just stupid, he was absolutely insane! JimBob

              1. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

                Well, if he had paid her she would have been a prostitute. Not paying her was the only moral choice! In his poems he wanted to rain death upon the planet. JimBob who thinks if people think life is so crazy they ought to just shoot themselves and not try and be such a dweeb and take out everyone else.

            2. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

              Am listening to the Morning Monarchy show (JEP is back!) and the Reichland’s Homeland Security Division wants to, once again, track all bloggers, vloggers, etc. Which was why I started one in ’08 after they called all bloggers scumbags. So now I WILL have to start one again. Personally, I’m thinking more Steemit than Yours, but that’s just me. JimBob who always likes the state to know that he don’t like them much at all.

              Here’s the twit link off his site:

              US Homeland Security wants to track journalists & analyze media ‘sentiment’ (Audio)
              https://twitter.com/mediamonarchy/status/986298518968025089

        1. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

          Stronghorse
          Unless you are living off of free food in somone elses house you HAVE A CHOICE of what to buy. In the US we are so rich that even poor people can eat quality food IF THEY KNOW HOW and IF THEY CARE about doing so.
          Lack of skills and lack of interest are why so many poor people are sick and fat… but consider that plenty of well off people are ALSO sick and fat you can see that most people value ease and comfort over health.
          I dont think that many people are REALLY so poverty stricken they must buy junk, they just dont choose to save for it or they value something else more. The danger of your thinking is that it makes poor people feel helpless and learned helplessness is a horrible trap.
          What people value is shown by what they put resources and energy into. Some people value education and others money and others family and what they choose to do with their lives depends on what they think will get them those things. No amount of free books and fancy programs will instill a love of reading in a kid who never had anyone important read to them.

          1. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

            On top of that, it is cheaper to eat organic than to buy those pre-packaged, or even worse!, fast food. I live on a very small budget, but because I am frugal I can eat very high quality meals. Though a lot of Americans don’t have access to stoves and the like, there is still a lot of leeway in how you shop for food. JimBob who thinks that they should have never stopped teaching things like home economics and the like in school. Not that I ever paid attention to school until I went to college.

            1. Duck ( User Karma: 12 ) says:

              IshotSanta
              True!
              Home Economics was introduced in the UK after the Boer war because poor people were so sickly they couldn’t be used as army cannon fodder. The idea was to make it so lower class folks could eat healthily on a budget.

        2. I Shot Santa ( User Karma: 91 ) says:

          I don’t think his use of the word “value” was as you interpreted. The poor “value” their scant resources more than they “value” quality is a comparative statement. It doesn’t necessarily mean they prefer lower quality. Also, the internet is a giant mall. There are very few places left where some sort of postal system isn’t in effect. But here in the states, so many people (of all economic levels) waste a lot of their money on packaged foods, which are extremely expensive. And of course, no matter how poor someone is, they still have their smart phones. I am on the low end of the economic scale and I still choose where I spend my money. I don’t spend it to impress anyone, which is a failing that many people make. While I do have to buy from the local Walmart every now and then, it is surprisingly little. A phone card once a month is the norm for me. I get by quite well, but then again I learned budgeting as a child. Most people don’t get budgets at all. JimBob who is always surprised at how proud many poor people are to waste their money to prove they are “big money”.

      2. zyxzevn ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

        I do have a solution by combining steemit with something like “deliberation”. http://cci.mit.edu/klein/deliberatorium.html

        The idea is that we need to put information in a structure, to allow different ideas to co-exist together. So on a certain topic, you can add different ideas. Show problems and solutions. And each can be discussed. The way it is presented is very old-fashioned,
        but the idea is there.
        So you can add your unpopular idea, and show its value in the logical structure of the information.

        Sadly, the deliberation example shows how
        they try to find solutions for the “carbon emission problem”,
        so the example is not really working well.
        It did not put unpopular ideas in the example,
        but it can and should.

        So I can add:
        Can we trust all information produced by the scientists?
        Is the statistics correct?
        What is the consequence of bias?
        Do we understand the connection with the sun well enough?
        Why are we leaving out water in the climate models?

        I can also fill in the gaps. While unpopular (within MIT),
        they might trigger good discussions.

        The information inside the structure can be “valued”
        not only with “crypto-money”,
        but also with other votes that have different meanings.

        These meanings can be something like:
        “well written” “good information” “love it” “good logic”
        “artistic” “funny”
        “chaotic” “false information” “don’t like” “don’t trust”
        “commercial/propaganda”

        People could setup different logical trees about the same topic,
        and should be able link to other articles.
        The logical structure of information is also information.

        With that I can setup my own “climate problem” logical tree,
        and make it clear that there is a real bias problem with the
        scientists involved.
        This structure can of course exist next to the example, and
        could even linked because they are about the same topic.

        1. anonymint ( User Karma: 0 ) says:

          I do have a solution by combining steemit with something like “deliberation”. http://cci.mit.edu/klein/deliberatorium.html

          I’ve had an analogous conceptual design in mind since I blogged about it on Steem in 2016, which is essentially that rankings should not be one-size-fits-all. I posit that will mitigate @zyxzevn’s concern.

          @Duck wrote:

          People who just listen to entertainers online are not really going to do more then move the deck chairs on the titanic around.

          I wrote a blog rebutting that line of argument.

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