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James Corbett Interviews Jordan Kaufman

Interview conducted 10/12/2009

Infowars Wiki

Posted 18 October, 2009

Editor's Note: The following transcription of our recent interview with Jordan Kaufman on the IBM Smart Planet campaign and the smart technology control grid has been provided by the Infowars Wiki.

James Corbett: This is James Corbett of the Corbett Report. It is the 12th of October 2009 here in Japan, and joining me on the line today is Jordan Kaufman, the host of Corruption Radio on KDWN 720 AM Las Vegas on Saturdays from 9 to 10pm Pacific and online at Jordan, thank you for joining me today on the Corbett Report.

Jordan Kaufman: Oh, it's my pleasure to be here.

JC: Well, as it's your maiden voyage on the Corbett Report, perhaps we should start by introducing yourself and what you do for the listeners out there. So, tell us a bit about your background and Corruptionradio.

JK: Sure. I have about 10 years of experience in the technology sector. Also, I have been involved in various campaigns before I started to disavow any direct involvement in politics. And on Corruption Radio, kind of what we do is - instead of [getting] caught up in the left-right divide - the arguments of the day - we try to make history come alive and show how it affects what's going on right this second. So we bring people up to speed from the past and kinda show the corrupt beginnings that leads to what people are discussing today.

JC: Excellent. Well, that sounds very good. So you have, and are there any other ways for people to access your work?

JK: Yeah, well, is the primary way. Of course, it is a live show on KDWN. And they can also subscribe to the podcast - they can do it from or - and that is how they can get the show. And each live broadcast each week go out through the podcast as well. And occasionally, we have some special messages we put through there as well. And all the blog posts are also on - so during the week you can get an idea of what the next show will be like.

JC: Excellent. Well, I've come across your work recently, but I was quite impressed with an episode of Corruption Radio that you put together on the subject of the smart grid. And this is a huge topic - and I'm not sure which way around you want to approach with. Because of course it's heavily connected with IBM, which as a corporation has an interesting history that lends some context to this topic and why it's such a concern. But of course, there may be a number of people out there who aren't even sure what the smart grid is exactly. So, would you like to go over a little background and historical context first, or explain what the smart grid is?

JK: Sure. Well, first off - IBM is clearly not the only company that is going to profit from the coming control grid that's coming up. But they are certainly at the forefront of it. And they're the most interesting to analyze - because the company has such a long history going back to the late 1800s - so we can really look back into the culture that was involved in IBM and see a long history of government and corporate marriage that - at times - has the appearance of being benign, but at other times really has their fingerprints on some real horrific history.

For example, with regards to Nazi-Germany - that IBM really was instrumental in helping the Nazis organize their society so that it can be controlled from a central Nazi command. And for example - we've all seen the movies where the Nazis come into a neighborhood, and they have a list of people that are Jewish - and they go in and grab everybody and round them all up. A lot of times - people have heard a lot of these details, but don't know why. For example, the people who were called out for being Jewish didn't even know they were Jewish because they were 1/16th Jewish, their family had converted four or five generations back. So, where did the Nazis get these lists? And the disturbing truth is that they got these lists because IBM helped them to organize all their records - all their baptismal records leading back to the year 1800. In other words - baptismal records showing conversions. They also helped them with their racial census. And they also helped them to organize when they would be dropping off Jews - truckloads of Jews - when they would get to a concentration camp, they would - based on their card sorting machines - because this is really pre-computer - but their card-sorting machines worked just the same as our modern-day computers to today, with the same idea - only every operation had to be mechanical. Which means that everything they wanted to calculate - every application, if you will, of these physical sorting machines - had to be programmed by an IBM technician.

So, when they would drop off a truckload or trainload of Jews, they would also drop off their punchcards - each Jew would have a punchcard that they would sort quickly. And within several minutes, they would know which group would go to be executed; which group would be put to office work; which group had medical backgrounds that they could use in their hospices; which groups would be worked to death in a work labor camp; and which ones would be suitable for medical experimentation. And IBM created the applications for them so that they could execute all these things.

JC: Well, that's right. And all of that was very ably documented - actually, stunningly enough, I guess it's such a central point about the Holocaust and how it was organised, but it was never really researched until early 2001 - when Edwin Black came out with 'IBM And The Holocaust[1]' - which is really the first time that information was really assembled. And he did a lot of research himself and through volunteers. So, that's a vital, vital point of Holocaust research that was only recently really uncovered and unearthed. But, playing devil's advocate.. oh please, go ahead.

JK: [interrupting] Well, actually... well, I was going to say that that this is really an excellent book. And I just point that out - that it's a rare book. Because a lot of books come out - every time when there is a President, there is hundreds different books about hating Bush or hating Obama and whatnot, and what is interesting about this book - he was the first person to assemble all of the documents. And he had access to the IBM archives in various different countries - he had people helping them. So yeah, that is really a rare book, because it really does provide a look into things that, really, there is no easy way to get a hold of that information before them.

JC: Well, just fleshing out that point a little bit, then. I guess just playing Devil's Advocate - I know there may be some people in the audience who might say: 'Oh, that was half a century ago; that was a different time, a different place; that was IBM Germany.' So what relevance does that have to talking about what IBM may be up to these days, do you think?

JK: Sure, that's an excellent question. And we definitely want to talk about what they're doing today. But - you know - I kind of think of World War II as being kind of one point, and currently what they're doing another point, and the bridge between that - in my mind - is the fact that - really - these things have never been acknowledged by IBM when Edwin Black came out with this groundbreaking research. It was obvious that their response to it was to minimize it, and forget about it - and act as if the Nazis took over IBM Germany - which is a distortion. IBM Germany was never taken over. They manipulated their accounts a little bit - they froze their accounts at one point - but they didn't run IBM Germany. And - so that to me is - because people can change, and of course organizations change as well, right. There are various different organizations that have - for example, the Catholic Church and whatnot - that have kind of - and even various different religious groups that have apologized for things in the past, and that's not something that has existed. So that is the bridge between then and now.

And what they're doing now is very interesting, because - it's really on a global scale. They're lobbying nations around the world to put in various different systems of organization - like, for example, I don't know which piece you really want to get into or cover, but I'll just mention one of them for now - is their licence-plate recognition software that is being used in Sweden. And what is interesting about this is that they have the precision down so well - basically, the point of the system is to recognize every car that comes in and out of Sweden. And they do this by not enforcing people to carry a transponder, but with a set of videocameras that recognise the licence plates with stunning accuracy - and can track out of 500,000 cars that pass the camera's views, they only miss about three or four cars they misidentify. So they identify the car and then their car is charged based on the time of day they're travelling - to avoid peak traffic time periods. There's a graduated scale for what they charge you - and at the end of the month, you get a bill. And that's just one example - and of course, the stated goal is to reduce traffic, which it is effective at doing, but it is a little bit disconcerting when you compare it with the other aspects of what they're doing right now and, of course, the historical context.

JC: Exactly - it's like finding one piece of a jigsaw puzzle, and you don't quite know what that piece does until you see the other pieces. But just on that Swedish licence plate scanning system - one of the interesting points that struck me when I listened to your podcast - was that apparently the Swedish government had hired a team of lawyers to deal with complaints about this when they were first instituting it, but they didn't quite get the flood of complaints they were expecting.

JK: Right, you know - there was only 5 or 6 people that objected and tried to appeal - because those lawyers were meant for appeals. And there really was no reason to hire 40 lawyers to handle 5 appeals. So they were really taken aback by that. And not only that - IBM also hired part of the contract that they sold to Sweden include - in other words, it's not just a love-sum contract that they have to itemize everything - one of the items was for a callcenter (?) to deal with complaints in addition to appeals - and the calls never came. There was obviously no reason to even have such a department - but they did circulate a number for people to call and complain. So, it is very interesting that there's - when people think that this is going to be difficult to spread from Sweden - I don't buy that. I think that this is going to be very easily accepted. And of course, all their operations were easily accepted in World War II - but we have to remember that the technology was much more primitive. Because the size of this network of video cameras - video cameras don't sound very complicated - but how do - out of 500.000 - how do all the four or five get recognized? There's some very powerful computing power behind that, and I don't know if that's something you're going to get into.

JC: Well, it's certainly something that we should get into. But just on the licence plate scanning note - I fear that you're right - that people will simply accept it. Even just from my hometown of Calgary, Canada, I recently had a news story pop up - I was scanning the local news - and apparently they've instituted a new law for people who are parking in the city. And instead of parking meters, they're now using a system where people will actually have to plug in their licence plate number in some way into a system, which will then be downloaded by the parking authorities - which will then go around with licence plate scanning cameras to scan the licence plates of everyone in each parking spot to make sure that they are registered to be there. And apparently, since Calgary is a jurisdiction in which people don't need a licence plate on the front of their car, there is now a new law that people have to park front in so that the back end is showing - so that the back-end is showing - so that they can read [them] with the cameras without getting out of their car[2]. And the only complaint that people had was that they now have to park in a different way - it wasn't about the licence plate scanning cameras itself. So, again, people can be inured and inculcated into it. But, as you say, this is just one particular aspect of a much, much larger system - so why don't we start by taking a little bit of an overview of some of the technologies that are involved, and then we can look at some of the pieces of that?

JK: Sure. So we discussed the traffic grid - the control grid with regards to traffic coming in and out of cities. There's also a power grid - and again, I don't want to miss the amazing technology that is out there, and some of the benefits that are purported - but I really think that is not the full issue. For example, a lot of these things - people can find in the May 4th edition of Fortune. And the reason I bring that out is just so that people know this is not some fringe idea that we're bringing up here - they advertise it publicly if you watch their advertisements, or if you include it in their podcast, I don't know. But they're very public about it - they want to get people to like this idea. So, this is right out there in the open. So you have the power grid - one thing that the power grid is going to do, is be able to get a better view into the individual usage of people with regards to their power consumption in their home. So, in other words - you've even seen some commercial - there's a GE (General Electric) commercial - and again, these companies are often at times interlocked - where they have a kid making a comment about how that now they have a smart washing machine that tells them they should do the dishes at 9:30pm, when there's a lull in the usage of energy.

And that's a little peak into kind of where they want to go in that direction. And in addition to that, you have medical records - of course, medical records are going to be something that's going to want to be centralized - that they want to vision into. And it's really, when you start seeing all these different areas that they want - they really want to know everything about what you do. And really - at the center - because there are very certain applications - and IBM will continue to come out with new ones - they all fall under what of course you're aware of is the smart planet campaign. And really - at the center of the - technologically speaking - the center of the smart planet campaign, are these petaflop computers. Now, if your listeners can visualize what a petaflop computer is - it's a machine - computer - that can process a 150.000 calculations every second for each person on the planet. So, for all 6 or 7 billion people, for each one of those individuals, they have a computer - a single computer - that can process a 150.000 calculations about you, about me, about everybody - 150.000 calculations per second. And that's just where they are at right now - and that's just one of these supercomputers. So that's what at the center of all these various applications.

JC: Right. And that links in to a lot of other technologies that are being worked on that will provide a forum for ubiquitous computing - whereby every object that we have, even our clothing, will have microchips embedded in them that will be scannable, readable, and trackable, and will provide that smart grid where - for example - you walk into a store and the store already knows your measurements so that they can provide you with a tailored suit or something to that effect - or that's the Minority Report-type world that we're moving into. So there's so many different ways that this will affect people's daily life, but let's just...

JK: [interrupting] Let me just comment on that. Let me just comment on that for your listeners. What you just said - to the average person on the street - it would sound very strange, very fringe, but what you're saying is completely mainstream to people that are aware of the technology. So I just wanted to comment about that - there is actually a clip you can find on a YouTube clip where there's a clip from the Ascent conference, which is Siemens' conference - Siemens is a large company, not as large as IBM, but it's very mainstream - and they talk about how the chips that are going to identify the products are going to be sold for less than a cent per chip[3]. So, in other words - they buy these things by the billions, and for less than a penny each. So that makes them cheap enough to put on a product - because what they wanna know is - they want to get into the mentality of the people. When they pick up a product in a store, they walk around, they see a cheaper brand, and they put it back and then they take it back. They want to understand people's mentality to such a degree so that they can be manipulated further. And, so this is something they brag about - and they talk about how this is ready right now. So this is not a fringe topic - I just want to make that clear when you bring up things like microchips being in all of our products - this is a 100% mainstream idea.

JC: Absolutely, there is absolutely nothing fringe about it. In fact the people in the know are having conferences about it and writing books about it and talking about it all the time. So I would suggest people go to a search engine and just type in the phrase 'ubiquitous computing' and see what comes out, because this branches out in some of these areas. But let's start taking a look at some of the specific ways this will affect people's day-to-day life. Of course, we talked a little bit about the smart power grid and about how that might work, but I guess this goes back to - Obama during the campaign was talking about how people won't be able to have their air conditioner set to whatever temperature they'd like, and things of that sort. Can you talk a little bit more about how that might be implemented and how that might affect people in their wallet and in their homes?

JK: Right well, you know... the interesting thing is, it's not going to come in the form of - people busting down your door, and breaking your things, and things like that. It's going to be much more subtle - because, remember, these campaigns of gaining control over people's individual lives have had a long history - the people are much more in tune with how to get these things done. So what would likely happen is the individual power consumption - once they have these - because there's an expression they use, called smart networks. So in other words - the idea is that - let's take the power grid for an example - that's considered a dumb network by IBM consultants, because they can not get disability into the individual. For example, when power goes out in your neighborhood - the way they actually figure it out where it's at is relatively primitive. They get complaints - they wait until they get maybe 5 or 6 calls from people saying: "The power is out". And they triangulate where it's at - and they have bad models for calculating that - and, they kind of triangulate based on the calls, and they sent out somebody to go looking for a tree that fell on some power cable. And based on that, the person will find it and then they will tie it up in kind of a - route the power around the broken connection.

So what they want is sensors everywhere, so once power goes out, they can immediately know where it's at - because they can still see the sensors that are still online. And this is actually very simple technology - as far as the individual sensors. And the real model of the technology is the computing of all these simple sensors - millions of simple sensors - in a centralized computer. So, that would also get into your house - now today, we know it's still common for power companies to send out people to go read your meter. And remember, the meter - when they go read your meter, they really don't have specified information. All they know is - between the last reading and this reading, you've used x amounts of energy, and they can charge you appropriately for that usage. But what they want - is they want to know how much power are you using right now - right this second. And then, the same way they want to smooth out traffic by punishing people for coming in during the peak hours, they want to smooth out the power usage.

So in that case, you would most likely be charged at a graduated scale. So if you want to use your power from 6pm to, let's say, 8pm, when most people are getting home from work, and like to do their hair-ins and take care of laundry, you would most likely be charged an extreme premium for that. And it's important to note that you cannot really do that today - that is impossible without that technology. So they don't come right out and say - we want to charge you on this scale. First they just say: "We want to have a smart network so we can fix power outages," you know they will tell you all of the positive in it, of course. And then once it's in place, then they can really do anything they want with it.

JC: Exactly. Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it? It's always set up for the best of reasons and what sounds like good ideas, but ultimately what you're doing is giving the power to bureaucrats and faceless politicians who are the same people who deregulated the California energy markets in such a way that Enron was able to make billions of dollars using schemes like Operation Death Star and other funny little scams like that they were playing. So obviously, there's serious problems...

JK: And again, remember, they do play with those words. When they say: "It is deregulated", it's not a coincidence that every time you hear 'deregulated', it's usually in a negative context. Like, for example, the way that the current financial crisis is characterized - they deregulated just because they repealed Glass-Spiegel, which is true - they removed some regulation, but the financial crisis is extremely regulated. And the banking industry has got in the direction of more regulation since the crisis, and will continue to do the same. But yeah, you're absolutely right with regard to what happened in California - they kinda deregulate part of the system, but keep the rest of the system kind of under control. And usually it allows a pocket where one company that is very close with a large group of politicians is able to come in and have preferred profit arrangement.

JC: That's exactly right, that's an important distinction. Rather than deregulated, it was more like re-regulated in such a complex way that only a few people were able to understand how to play the system. And unfortunately, that was a company that was really not in for people's best interests. And yet again, now we're partnering with companies like IBM or Siemens or other groups that are trying to implement this technology, and hoping it will be for the best. But, let's take a look at another example of this technology, and one that I think will get people where it counts - which is in their body. And an example of that came out just recently. October 5th 2009, reports: "Microchip implant to link your health records, credit history, social security". And that headline sent chills down my spine, but perhaps you can explain maybe what that means for people out there that aren't similarly afffected by that.

JK: Well, again, sometimes on my radio show I like to break down: here's what we know and here's what maybe.. you know what I mean? So we make a distinction between: what is the cold hard facts? And the cold hard facts is that, again, Verichip, which is a company that is actually - whenever you hear Verichip, you have to think IBM, right? Because Verichip is essentially funded - what a lot of people don't understand about IBM is that they have a large amount of capital that they use sort of like a bank - or a venture capital firm, if you want to think about it that day. So basically, Verichip is in existence because of IBM, and partially because of their funding. So, what Verichip is - again, they create a - when I had Jason Bermas on my show, we talked about some of the updates about that. And it used to be a grain of rice - the size of a grain of rice is this chip with, I believe, a sixteen-digit number or something to that effect that uniquely identifies you and will get ahold of your medical records - hold information about you in this chip. And now they've got it down to about a third of the size of a grain of rice.

And what IBM and Verichip is again lobbying governments around the world to get their government employees - they start with the ultra-sensitive government employees -and they force them to get the chip implanted. And this happened in Mexico in 2004, I believe 2005 - they required many of their agencies to get chipped. So, that's kind of like Stage 1 - and again, it's not really forced in the sense that - you know, if you want to work somewhere else, you can work somewhere else. But again, there's a collusion between government and corporations that depend on government assistance. And you know, there's things set up in the United States like Infragard that engages certain corporations with the government so that there's this cooperation. So it will most likely spread from the government agencies, and it will become pandemic in government agencies - then move into the corporate world through the Infragard arrangement or similar relationships in other countries. And then, eventually, it will be generally accepted. I don't know that they're ever going to force it - I doubt they are ever going to force people to get it. What's going to happen is - people are going to demand it.

And that's a much better way to run things for yourself - if you're the ruling group, isn't it better to get people to demand something from you? Like airport security - with everything that happened in the past eight years. People were a lot of times demanding - they would get people to demand something that they wanted to implement - makes it extremely easy to implement. And if you don't mind, there's actually a quote from Bertrand Russell who wrote in his 1952 book, The Impact Of Science On Society. And I won't read the full quote, but he basically says that [paraphrasing] in the future, it will be easier for governments - he said: "Governments will have much more control over individual mentality than they now have even in totalitarian countries[4]". And he said, basically through diet, injections and injunctions, and from a very early age, through education, that they would have the ability to destroy people's free will. "And from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable. And any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible". So he wrote this in 1952 - and the key phrase in that quote, I think, is where he says that "in the future, governments will have more control, even more control than there is in totalitarian countries'. So, in countries where people view themselves as free, he said that there would be more control in those places than in typical totalitarian regimes that existed in the '40s and '50s.

JC: That's an important point. It's really a psychological control grid that underlays the actual physical technological smart grid. And together, makes a devastatingly effective control grid - because people then not only desire their own control, their own enslavement in some key senses - but will actually be willing to pay top dollar for it - because it's the fashionable thing to do. And that's a very interesting trick that they like to play on people.

JK: That's a good point too, because think about everything that we are doing, you know. And again, I have no problem with Facebook or any of these things. But it's interesting. We seem to crave to organize ourselves. And a lot of the businesses in Nazi-Germany - the money did not all come from the government, because that's difficult. The government really doesn't want to do that - they want private money to take care of most of these things. And if you think about how many people have spent money on iPhones - the applications on the iPhone depend on knowing exactly where you are at. So the individual is happy to make those payments every month to pay for this advanced technology. In Nazi-Germany - the businesses - in order to organize their companies - they would engage IBM and they spent millions of dollars from private industry - not even from the Nazi regime. And that made it very easy - and they also organize themselves into these trade unions and trade organizations. So the Nazis - when they took over, they really didn't have to start from scratch. And once there was a critical mass of people doing this, then they can enforce a rule saying - you had to have an IBM machine if your company was of a certain size to organize your business. And then once that was in place, then the third step was to then take it over. But by then, it was already organized - so they were essentially shifting who was at the top of the organization.

JC: Well, that's right - those tricks still continue today. And that's why the CIA has front venture capital firms like In-Q-Tel which provide seed money to Facebook[5], which then becomes all the rage - and accomplishes exactly what the US government was attempting to do with the Information Awareness Office - which was: create these vast relational databases, so that they could track who was interacting with who. Well, now we all sign up and give that information for free to Facebook, and whoever is behind Facebook for free. And we actually enjoy doing it. So they do know how to manipulate the human being.

JK: Exactly. Exactly. If you can make it chic, if you can make it.. and I haven't looked into this completely, so I haven't verified if this is 100% true - but I have heard reports of law enforcement even using people's Facebook announcements or even Facebook event announcements online to break down their house and find out what they're doing. And I think there's been cases where they jumped into like a barbecue at a house and they thought it was going to be a meth rave or something like that[6].

JC: It's a party, yes, and people end up getting tazered. I have seen stories about that - I can't quote the headline out of the top of my head, but I have seen at least two or three stories in various newspapers around the world about that, and it does happen.

JK: Right. And you know, what's interesting too that - in the popular culture, and this is something I brought up in my broadcast. We see these things in popular culture. We see in The Simpsons for example - they had this episode where they wanted to keep track of Bart. Bart steals a cellphone, or he finds a lost cellphone, and he starts using it. And the owner finds out and - Dennis Leary I think it is - he tells him that they should keep the cellphone and just turn it on - the GPS tracking - so that they could track the kid - so that they can handle this problem child. And then there's even a part where Marge Simpson says - that basically, that it's not wrong to spy on someone if you're trying to do it for their own good, or something to that effect. So that's very interesting - what I also found interesting was - Andy Rooney saying that he didn't like airport security and how difficult it was becoming, and how much time he had to wait[7]. And again, that connects with people, because: "I don't like waiting". And his solution was to tattoo everyone - so that we would have a way of identifying safe people. And then he goes on to say, 'Or we can have a chip', and then he rallies off a couple of other options. But what's interesting is - that's exactly what happened in World War II - but people weren't craving it, it was forced. The Jews were forced to have numbers on their Jews. And people - as far as there being any kind of controlled media or whatnot - people should ask themselves this question: how many people have heard about the numbers on the arms of Holocaust survivors. In my mind - at least coming from the East Coast - that was talked about in school, that was on the general psyche. Everyone that I know anyway that I talk to know that, yeah, Holocaust survivors have these numbers that were used to identify them.

But how many people that those were actually IBM identification numbers that would correspond to a punch card, and that this human being was reduced down to? And that is very striking - that people are not aware of that. And we have Andy Rooney advocating tattooing ourselves for the purpose of social organization.

JC: Absolutely. Well, we will be destroyed for a lack of historical knowledge - which is why it's so important to continue to keep this information circulating so that people can be aware of it, and know what's happening as it happens. Well, we've covered many, many aspects of it, but just wrapping up here, are there any other things that you'd like to throw out about this topic, or things that you'd like to cover?

JK: Well, just for people to study the research - to study their history - and really, once you start going down that road - of examining today based on - not based on what the pundits are saying - flicking back from CNN to Fox News to 'so-called' get two different perspectives is really not going to give you a clear view of current events. And, I avoid at all costs to get my news visually - because it's a very powerful medium and it's a very powerful way to manipulate perceptions and things like that. So I would just say: history is repeating itself with regard to the global control grid. And it's also repeating itself with regard to the financial system, which - I mean - we could do a whole other show just on that. And the same things that happened in the late 1800s in the financial systems are now happening on a global scale. And we can get into that another time.

And really, that's the biggest thing - that all these things have been - there's really nothing new under the sun. And really, if people want to know what is going on, and know what to expect coming down, they really only need to look to history. And through your show, I've seen various topics that you have, and you're bringing a lot of this stuff to light. Ask people to keep listening, and get as much of their information they can from reading, and from first-hand research.

JC: Absolutely, I agree with that. And of course, the control grid extends out into many other areas, so I'd be happy to have you on again in the future to talk about some of those other topics. But in the meantime, fire out your coordinates, so the listeners can find some of your excellent work.

JK: Absolutely. Again, it's I'd ask all your listeners to please call and subscribe - you can subscribe on the right panel. There's a listener page. Also, people can call up and leave me voicemails - that's 7025601948. Again, that's 7025601948. And they can listen to this show streaming - it's live on Saturday night, and I usually post it about a day later. And yeah, they can also e-mail me at And every e-mail I get is read by me personally - and if there's something I can use on the show, I will read it on the show as well.

JC: Alright, excellent. Well, it was good talking to you and I certainly hope we can talk to each other again. Jordan Kaufman, thank you for joining me today.

JK: Alright, it was a pleasure.

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